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Reply: SeaFall:: General:: Re: [Heavy Spoiler - Game 5] [Rant] What the actual Fxxk?

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by heyvince

despite being down in end game ship upgrades to explore


Um, not sure if I'm reading this wrong or if you wrote this unclearly, but all players get to upgrade one of their ships at the end of the game. This means all players should have ship upgrades equal to the number of games played. The book even instructs you that if a new player joins immediately give them ship upgrades equal to the number of games played.

Reply: SeaFall:: General:: Re: [Heavy Spoiler - Game 5] [Rant] What the actual Fxxk?

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by MadRobin

Ranior wrote:

I know my recent experiences in my last several games have had several moments of anguish for me and a few moments for the other players. I'm not sure my group is one to just want to solider though those for another 10 or so games.

It seems to be true that this game is not fun for everyone. It just makes me sad because our group is having a blast and I can't wait to play again as soon as each game is over. It's hard to resist trying to argue people out of their preferences :)

Reply: SeaFall:: General:: Re: [Heavy Spoiler - Game 5] [Rant] What the actual Fxxk?

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by Ranior

heyvince wrote:

despite being down in end game ship upgrades to explore


Um, not sure if I'm reading this wrong or if you wrote this unclearly, but all players get to upgrade one of their ships at the end of the game. This means all players should have ship upgrades equal to the number of games played. The book even instructs you that if a new player joins immediately give them ship upgrades equal to the number of games played.


We all have the same number of end game ship upgrades. What I was saying is that I currently have chosen to upgrade my raid quite a bit after the first few games. If I decide to switch to try to compete with the explorers more in my group, my ships will be behind their explore values for a few games until I catch up. And at that point they will either be faster or have more hold than me probably.

As for the interaction of using enmity on offense, admittedly it does have to get to the at war with section which does not always happen. But if that is the case, how is stealing an advisor possibly the correct move? It will give me one glory and a possible benefit in setting up later for a decent move while slightly inconveniencing my enemy. In return my enemy may well get permanent enmity to help defend against me in the future. Hopefully I have enough fortune or reputation to get lucky enough to eliminate that enmity at the end of the game, but now I am spending even more resources to try and pull of this one move--which I am ill convinced will actually help me win games ore catch up to the other players. I can certainly try it, but the math is not working out here for me. Even with a juicy +5 explore advisor, I still will be struggling to explore some of those skull sites or new islands without spending some turns researching and upgrading my ship probably by raiding docks. I suppose stealing the advisor toward the end of the game and trying to keep him into the future may help work to get more of those exploration glory boosts, but again I am behind in ship explore values right now.

So my ultimate point stands--I feel that through no real fault of my own that my choices for upgrading my ships has put me in a tough position. My opponents have numerous permanent upgrades over me so that even my starting bonuses don't do much more than getting me back to equal footing to their starting position, yet their upgrades seem better suited to helping get the best glory currently. At the time I made my choices there were no colonies, there were not rules for exploring and finding tombs, and I did not know there would essentially be no better sites to raid emerging. So while in the first few games raiding a ship for a milestone or raiding some sites was working pretty well, the milestones that supported raiding seem to have dried up completely while the explorers and merchants whom have improved hols and explores are really benefiting. Perhaps in another couple games this will improve for me, but I don't see why I should keep slogging through a game that has pretty bad balance game to game just to get to the possibly greener pastures.

Overall it seems many of you are quite enjoying it though and I may be in the minority for the frustration level and feeling like I have few ways to actually come back right now. I sympathize with the OP as I've had a similar experience. To those who haven't experienced this, I envy you but am glad for you. I hope your Seafall games continue to go well and I hope none of your players wind up in a position like mine where they feel they've been somewhat screwed by the game and incomplete information when making important long term choices.

Reply: SeaFall:: General:: Re: So.. is this game "Fun" ?? (post SUSD review inquiry)

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by atog

Becq wrote:

Slyght wrote:

My group is 7 games in (plus the prologue), and our initial excitement has pretty much fizzled out. I think SU&SD and All The Games You Like Are Bad do a good job summarizing the faults of the game.

So then the question is, what other games do you love that require success rolls on actions you take?

If the answer is few or none, then the theory that Ameritrash vs Eurogame is the main factor in liking this game gains traction.


I like to chime in that this game, from my experience, is indeed a hybrid.

I could even go as far as that it passes as a 50/50 hybrid. Sure.

My biggest gripe against it is that the Ameri-element is well done and Euro-element is complete shite.

If you like Euro games and well balanced, well tested designs, there is no way you can appreciate the euro element in Seafall.

In that sense, the A vs E factor is really not much of a theory but closer to a fact, pretty much.

Reply: SeaFall:: General:: Re: [Heavy Spoiler - Game 5] [Rant] What the actual Fxxk?

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by Ranior

MadRobin wrote:


It seems to be true that this game is not fun for everyone. It just makes me sad because our group is having a blast and I can't wait to play again as soon as each game is over. It's hard to resist trying to argue people out of their preferences :)


Haha indeed. I hope that despite my protestations here, that this point is still clear: I am glad for those of you who are enjoying this game. I'm not trying to tell anyone that they should quit or that people will not enjoy this.

I am saying though that many of the tepid reviews and posts of others do have merit--SeaFall is a game that has real problems for some gamers and for those who are hesitant about playing a game (and are for some reason reading this spoiler filled thread), you may want to stay away. For those who are starting to feel these type of experiences, you're not alone. And I doubt things will get wildly better over the next several games.

If we backtrack about a month, I was on the opposite side. I had played the first two games and loved it. I had preordered long ago and read all the posts by Rob on the PHG site, eagerly anticipating each one. I pooh-poohed the reviewers at Dice Tower and SUSD, ignoring their tepid reviews as somehow being wrong about this one. I didn't really believe other's posts I read that talked about the flaws in balance in the game or the problems they were seeing. I hadn't experienced those and I would have a different experience than all them I told myself.

But, I didn't. Because now I agree with them. SeaFall is an ambitious interesting game. There are lots of good to great parts about it. But there are real flaws that will make it near unplayable or at least unpalatable for many gamers. And it can be hard to know where you will fall until you actually invest for several sessions and start to find out and see things unfold for yourself.

I may yet play a few more games. Part of me still wants to in the hopes for the great game to emerge I want this to be. But I'm really wary. SeaFall has burned me already a bit. I don't really want to keep playing a game that adds to my frustrations rather than adds to my fun. There's plenty on my shelf that will add to my fun. SeaFall really doesn't make me want to reach for it again.

This is purely my experience though. I hope no one else has it. I hope everyone else can just love it and have a blast playing it. I sure know I still want that, and for awhile that was my experience.

Reply: SeaFall:: General:: Re: [Heavy Spoiler - Game 5] [Rant] What the actual Fxxk?

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by lactamaeon

@Ranior

I'm not going to argue that there isn't a bunch of randomness in the game (there is) or that the rules are always clear (they aren't) or that the game is never frustrating (it can definitely be).

It is a little interesting to me that you are complaining about Raid seeming unbalancedly weak in a thread where the OP is complaing about how it's too strong. Both of you think the game is unbalanced, but I think the issue for both of you is more that it is chaotic.

Anyway, I think one of the major values of beefing up in raid is that you have the option of stealing stuff from other players. Of course, you only know some of the long-term strategic implications (you can gauge how much enmity you will leave, but you can't know how badly you'll regret it until you see something else you want to steal from that player). So I'm not recommending a specific course of action here (other than raiding tombs if the opportunity arises) because I don't know what will or won't work out (and wouldn't spoil it for you if I did).

I'm just trying to point out that if one aspect of the game is valued now, a high raid should allow you to "buy in" to that aspect with enmity rather than (or in addition to) coin. Whether it's stealing goods from the player building colonies or research cards and advisors from the other players, or tablets and relics to put in a museum or something.

MadRobin wrote:


The emnity you place from raiding goes on the council room (or whatever site you raid) until winter, so they can't use it effectively (on offense) to retaliate until the next year when it's in the at-war area. For us, that basically means never.


Most of our games get to turn 7, so if you raid them in the first year they will be able to hit you back if they want by endgame.

Reply: SeaFall:: General:: Re: [Heavy Spoiler - Game 5] [Rant] What the actual Fxxk?

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by MadRobin

lactamaeon wrote:

@Ranior

MadRobin wrote:


The emnity you place from raiding goes on the council room (or whatever site you raid) until winter, so they can't use it effectively (on offense) to retaliate until the next year when it's in the at-war area. For us, that basically means never.


Most of our games get to turn 7, so if you raid them in the first year they will be able to hit you back if they want by endgame.


Sure, if they happen to have a ship close enough to the provinces on that one/two turn window. For us, it's generally way more profitable for people to be on the complete other side of the board at that point.

Thread: Risk Legacy:: General:: Event Deck Timing

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by Rakasis

Hey, I fear I may have messed something up. We have opened a couple of the packets and have a pretty healthy event deck but I don't know when or how to use them. Could someone (without spoilers) tell me when the rules for using this deck will show up? I feel like I missed something.

Reply: SeaFall:: General:: Re: Grumpy about my purchase. Worth it with just 2?

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by Anarchosyn

lactamaeon wrote:


I thought the prologue was fine, but we followed it up with the first full session right away.


Thanks for the resources.

Per the prologue, is it effectively the first session (in length)? I'd do them back to back as well, but if that means booking a 4+ hour session, it probably wouldn't happen.

Reply: SeaFall:: Strategy:: Re: Getting Discouraged (minor spoilers)

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by Becq

Others have given good general advice. One thing I'd like to check on:

It sounds to me as though you got the same exact event twice in a single year. In general, this shouldn't happen. Each time you flip over a new event, you "dismiss" the old one (put it at the bottom of the deck). So most of the time, you shouldn't get that event back until one of two things happens:
1) The year ends -- during winter, the event deck is shuffled.
2) A milestone introduces a new event -- the new event is shuffled into the deck (which includes the events at the bottom of the deck).

Back to general advice:

There are events that punish accumulation of gold. The best way to combat this is to minimize selling for gold. Instead, consider converting goods directly into glory via treasures, upgrades, or structures -- each of which converts a good and 2 gold into a glory. This is often more efficient than selling, since it allows you to get 8 gold worth of benefit per good rather than 6. You'll need to sell from time to time to get seed money, but try not to accumulate too much at a time, and make sure you have a plan to spend the cash soon after. Always keep in mind that money is worthless at the end of the game; trading is a tool that must be used to generate glory, not wealth.

As others have noted, milestones are fairly critical to winning the game (and not only due to glory; you've probably seen by now other benefits). Always look over the milestones for the next game, and pick out one (or two) that you think you can get faster than the others. You actually want to be doing this in the last few turns of the previous game, because you want to keep an advisor that will help you -- which might mean buying an advisor that you don't need at the time, but which you'll need early in the next game.

If you're behind, you have a pretty significant advantage in the first couple of turns of the game, because you and go first,
(Box 1 spoilers)
[o]and start the game with bonus money/rep/fortune.[/o]
You can accomplish things earlier in the turn than the others, and have first shot at the best advisors. Use that to make sure you get the milestone you're aiming for!

One thing to beware of is the other players. One *disadvantage* of going first is that you don't know where the other players are heading.
(Box 1 spoilers)
[o]Try to avoid being an easy target. Keeping your ships together is often a strong advantage for two reasons: first, you get a little extra defensive boost. And second, YOU control which of your ships is attacked. Which means that you can put your goods on one ship, then use the other as a sacrifice, if you're raided.[/o]

One last thing. I'm not sure where you are in the campaign, but if you look at the types of things that get unlocked with each box, you might see trends or themes. There are points in the campaign where trade and/or exploration vary in importance, and you should try to adapt your chosen strategy to that. Don't lock yourself into a particular strategy exclusively.

I hope something in here helps!

Reply: SeaFall:: General:: Re: Grumpy about my purchase. Worth it with just 2?

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by manduke

In case you havn't seen this, here's what Rob Daviau has to say about player counts (including 2p):

"The more players you have, the more cutthroat the game becomes. The supply of upgrades, goods, and structures is fixed regardless of player count. So five-player games will strongly incentivize people to steal what they can't buy. In a three-player game, it is more of an option to raid rather than a mandate. I do think the game would work with two players but it would be more of an engine-building race."

reddit.com/r/boardgames/comments/4i5hja/im_rob_daviau_designer_of_seafall_you_can_ask_me/

Reply: SeaFall:: Rules:: Re: [SPOILER] Rule 22

Reply: Risk 2210 A.D.:: Variants:: Re: feedback on Galactic risk

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by marhawkman

klbush wrote:

marhawkman wrote:

I don't think being able to move it for free is a good idea. maybe pay 1 energy per territory moved?

Yes I think there should be a cost, 1 energy seems appropriate. Also I think it should require troops to move it, like maybe 3? It's defense value would be that it can take one hit just like regular troops so can't be captured, and doesn't provide any offense so no dice rolling by it?
Or just rule that it has to be moved during redeployment. :p

Reply: SeaFall:: Rules:: Re: Box 4 Question (spoiler)

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by Becq

Yavuial wrote:

[o]Does Padmos enmity affect your raiding dice when conquering Ker or not ?[/o]

Relevant enmity subtracts dice from raiding, so yes.
(Box 4 spoiler)
[o]Padmos is Ker's governor, and regardless, Padmos' enmity blankets all of the islands (except for islands with more enmity).

That said, our raid-specialist player (who also had the highest Padmos enmity) made short work of Ker...[/o]

Reply: SeaFall:: General:: Re: Grumpy about my purchase. Worth it with just 2?

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by lactamaeon

Anarchosyn wrote:


Per the prologue, is it effectively the first session (in length)? I'd do them back to back as well, but if that means booking a 4+ hour session, it probably wouldn't happen.


With 2 players, I would expect the Prologue to last almost as long as a full game (around 5-7 turns), due to the way it's structured (each player should reach about 6 glory). With 3 players, one of them still has to reach 6 glory so I would expect about the same duration. With 4-5 players, it would be shorter (around 3-5 turns), because it will end once 4 players have reached 3 glory.

For us it was well over a 5-hour session (5 players). With 2 players who were reasonably well-versed in the starting rules, it should be doable a lot faster, but I'm not sure by how much.

Reply: SeaFall:: Strategy:: Re: Getting Discouraged (minor spoilers)

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by lactamaeon

Becq wrote:

Others have given good general advice. One thing I'd like to check on:

It sounds to me as though you got the same exact event twice in a single year.


A closer read suggests they were different events.

Reply: SeaFall:: General:: Re: Grumpy about my purchase. Worth it with just 2?

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by Becq

Anarchosyn wrote:

Per the prologue, is it effectively the first session (in length)? I'd do them back to back as well, but if that means booking a 4+ hour session, it probably wouldn't happen.

On the one hand, the prologue is considerably shorter than a normal game in that it can be completed in perhaps half as many turns. On the other hand, it might take longer due to looking up rules. I strongly suggest that players familiarize themselves with the game, and preferably watch Rodney Smith's how to play video. You'll likely still have questions, but it should smooth things considerably. You might also want to Google "SeaFall Unofficial FAQ" and have that available (minus the marked spoiler sections).

I think when we played Prologue + Game 1, it was 3.5-4 hours, but I don't recall for sure. They could probably be played in 2-3 hours by players familiar with the rules.

On your larger question, several people have reported having a really good two-player experience. If you find that the game isn't tight enough, check out the Variants section of this forum for options.

Note also that the number of players is allowed to flex, if needed. If you start with 4-5 players, and some players opt to drop out, your campaign isn't ruined; just play with what you have left. And there's also mechanics for letting people join into an existing campaign, so you could regrow the campaign later. Best to minimize that, but the tools are there if you need them.

Thread: SeaFall:: Strategy:: [Spoiler - Box 3?] Milestone discussion

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by atog

Just curious.

Theoretically, what is the quickest way to [o]build colony?[/o]

Lets say no hold was upgraded on any ship. So I am thinking I need the smuggler? or the [o]the guy that let you spend gold to substitute goods[/o]? Or would upgrading hold be viable?


Requirement: 2 hold, 18 gold, 6 buy, 1 build


1 hold = 1 raid
or
1 hold = 1 good + upgrade + 2 gold
1 good = 1 buy + 3 gold
1 hold = 1 buy + upgrade + 5 gold

If say I am not good at raiding and I start with 8 gold, then the requirement becomes
20 gold, 8 buy, 2 upgrade, 1 build


With absolutely no advisor, that takes 7 turns + however many turns to amass 20 gold. That would be the worst case scenario.

The discussion is to find out

1) in what way we can speed up this process
2) how reliable this way could be (i.e. only when certain advisor show up might count against its reliability)

Reply: SeaFall:: Strategy:: Re: [Spoiler - Box 3?] Milestone discussion

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by lactamaeon

Note that this is a box 2 spoiler, not a box 3 spoiler.
[o]
I'm not sure what the best way to get to a colony is offhand, but keep in mind that there's only one copy of the Hale (+1 hold) upgrade (at least as far as I've seen). So you need more gold, but only one upgrade action.

Also note that if someone else is going for a colony, you might be able to snipe some of their goods with a well-timed raid. Obviously this is risky![/o]

I expect that this will do better if supplemented with some combination of explores and raid/tax actions, too, to get some of the goods/money needed without paying (while also collecting glory).

Reply: SeaFall:: Strategy:: Re: Getting Discouraged (minor spoilers)

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by Becq

lactamaeon wrote:

A closer read suggests they were different events.

Oh? It looks as though
(Multiple early even spoilers)
[o]the event(s) stole gold twice in the same year. Are there two of that particular card? We've kept the deck contents secret, so I haven't counted, and frankly I'm sure there are events I haven't even seen yet. My impression is that there are multiple similar cards, but they inflict different penalties, and only one is triggered by gold or affects accumulated gold (the others are glory-triggered, which shouldn't affect a trader who's engine is still building).[/o]

But that's why I asked it as a question.
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