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Reply: SeaFall:: Rules:: Re: Smuggler and full holds

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by Osuniev

razordaze wrote:

(Box 2 spoiler)
[o]

Becq wrote:

You aren't letting the Thug steal six goods, right? The card text only allows you to steal up to four.

No, everything after the first four is paid with gold, and has to be bought from a different island than the one the Thug shook down. With +2 Buy upgrade, it's 6 goods for $6.

Easy to do first turn (after your hold's big enough) for a turn 2 colony, and then it's slim pickings for everyone else.[/o]


Assuming noone raids your ships during turn 1... especially since they are on separate islands.

Reply: SeaFall:: General:: Re: So.. is this game "Fun" ?? (post SUSD review inquiry)

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by Slyght

My group is 7 games in (plus the prologue), and our initial excitement has pretty much fizzled out. I think SU&SD and All The Games You Like Are Bad do a good job summarizing the faults of the game.

Reply: Indulgence:: General:: Re: Why not just reprint Dragonmaster?

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by JustinDJacobson

For the record, you won't find the word "nostalgia" on our website, and not by accident. If we were simply trying to reprint to appeal to nostalgia, we'd be looking at very different games (and Dragonmaster would definitely not be one of them for the reasons stated above).

Our mission statement says it all.

Thanks for taking the time to discuss our game.

Reply: SeaFall:: Variants:: Re: Small change to Make Treasure come into play more often - encourage raiding

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by Becq

lactamaeon wrote:

JimZam wrote:

What about buying Treasure with the 8-gold discount?

In my (more limited) experience, it's not typically worth bringing goods home to get that discount very frequently. When you do, it's more often to get upgrades and buildings than treasures.

Often true, since buying a 10-gold upgrade or structure is worth 1 glory plus a power of varying utility, while a 10-gold treasure is worth a flat 1 glory. However, if you consider the action spent to acquire the item (which isn't required for the treasure), the treasure is "less expensive".

Still, I like the basic idea the OP had of making more use of treasures, but in an effort to modify balance as little as possible, try this out for size:

(fairly trivial prologue-level spoilers regarding the general nature of exploration results)
[o]1) Any time a Captain's Booke entry awards you glory, you instead take treasures of the value stated (highest denomination available first). So if you're awarded two glory, you take a 2-glory treasure instead. (This would not apply to the base glory for completing the endeavor.)

2) Any time you gain a milestone, you place the milestone card in your treasure room instead of destroying it. The card counts as a treasure equal to it's glory value until the end of the game, at which point it is destroyed it as normal. (You still record claiming the milestone as normal.)

In addition to making your opponent's treasure rooms a more appealing target, this would also make the occasionally large glory awards a bit less certain.[/o]
This might result in too few treasures available, in which case stand-in generic treasures could be used instead of the normal ones for the first rule above.

Thoughts?

Reply: SeaFall:: Rules:: Re: [SPOILER] Rule 22

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by Becq

@Nathanaël:
(Box 2 spoiler)
[o]Think of the province marker as being part of the cost of activating the colony (that is, as a result you have one less enmity marker available), whereas
(Box 4 spoiler)
[o]there is no activation cost (money or token) for Ker, because it's always automatically active. Which makes it that much more appealing as a colony.[/o][/o]

Reply: SeaFall:: Variants:: Re: Small change to Make Treasure come into play more often - encourage raiding

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by Osuniev

This is a reaaally good idea ! I'll suggest it to my players tomorrow!

Reply: SeaFall:: Rules:: Re: The Captain's Log (Unofficial SeaFall FAQ and compilation of rules clarifications and game play information from SeaFall's developers)

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by Becq

(Box 1 spoiler)
[o]

DaviddesJ wrote:

No fortune tokens in Uncharted Waters? That's unexpected.

I'd say it makes sense -- most of the events are really the game rolling against you, rather than the other way around, and fortune generally can't be used by the defender.[/o]

Reply: SeaFall:: Rules:: Re: The Captain's Log (Unofficial SeaFall FAQ and compilation of rules clarifications and game play information from SeaFall's developers)

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by DaviddesJ

Becq wrote:

(Box 1 spoiler)
[o]

DaviddesJ wrote:

No fortune tokens in Uncharted Waters? That's unexpected.

I'd say it makes sense -- most of the events are really the game rolling against you, rather than the other way around, and fortune generally can't be used by the defender.[/o]


I don't have a strong opinion about whether it "makes sense". It just doesn't seem to match the rulebook.

Reply: SeaFall:: General:: Re: So.. is this game "Fun" ?? (post SUSD review inquiry)

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by Becq

Slyght wrote:

My group is 7 games in (plus the prologue), and our initial excitement has pretty much fizzled out. I think SU&SD and All The Games You Like Are Bad do a good job summarizing the faults of the game.

So then the question is, what other games do you love that require success rolls on actions you take?

If the answer is few or none, then the theory that Ameritrash vs Eurogame is the main factor in liking this game gains traction.

Reply: SeaFall:: Variants:: Re: Small change to Make Treasure come into play more often - encourage raiding

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by Becq

[o]I do have a concern regarding this house rule, though -- it might make "glory camping" the only strategy worth pursuing. That is, beefing up raid, then waiting for someone else to score big, then robbing them -- then repeat as often as possible.

So maybe it would be better to score half of the stated glory bonus as a pure bonus and take the other half as treasure (and do the same with milestones; score half the value as a bonus and treat the milestone as being a treasure worth half its value).[/o]

Either way, I'd be curious to find out how your game goes, if you use some variation on this idea...

Reply: Indulgence:: General:: Re: Why not just reprint Dragonmaster?

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by Chris Schreiber

Justin, I appreciate the additional details on the decision making.

I also understand that Stephanie Straw interviewed Rob Daviau today about the new games and that retheme was discussed. Great. Stephanie is a terrific interviewer, they have a great rapport together; I'm looking forward to listening to the podcast.

My assumptions:
- I know you would have gotten the Bob Pepper art if you could have. And you knew those expectations would be high.
- I totally trust that you will improve the gameplay. That's a big plus.

My concerns:
- Dragonmaster was a card games that kids could play. The current game title has the word indulgence with blood dripping off of it. And it's about papal intrigue and selling indulgences. That's a complete audience and tonal change.
- Even if you don't feel that it is the case, your company is leveraging nostalgia to create buzz and interest in what you are doing. You surveyed us about our memories and early days of gaming. I thought that was a great touch. Please don't suggest you aren't making an appeal to nostalgia. To me, that's just being slippery. You know you're leveraging nostalgia even if you have subtle distinctions about what that does and does not mean for your design process.
- Your logo suggests restoration is a new coat of paint; your comments suggest you guys are okay with bulldozing things down to the foundation and plumbing. That's cool. I, however, was excited for a new coat of paint and modern appliances. So I was disappointed.

My expectations:
- I'll give the game and art a fair shake, but I won't preorder it like I would have.
- I'll buy an extra copy of the original if I can find it.
- Restoration Games will recognize they disappointed some people today and everything will move forward as planned. In the best case, you guys will realize that even if nostalgia doesn't inform your design process, you can admit that it fuels the expectations and buzz around your titles. That seems fair to me.

Reply: Indulgence:: General:: Re: Why not just reprint Dragonmaster?

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by JustinDJacobson

1) We don't approach every restoration the same way. Each game is unique. Yes, we definitely changed the tone and feel of Dragonmaster. But Indulgence is not all that dark. Let's be honest, any theme in a trick-taking game is a lovely veneer at best. It was with Dragonmaster, and it will be with Indulgence. I disagree about the extent of the restoration. Pepper's art is not a feature because it is by Pepper. It's a feature because it was exciting and different and out there. We're trying to do something similar with Chelsea's art.

2) We knew we were going to disappoint some people no matter what we did. I'm sorry this one doesn't seem like it's going to click with you. "Sorry" in the sense that I'm not happy your disappointed, but not "sorry" in the sense that I take blame for it. That is the nature of art. All we can do is have a strong vision for what we want to do and execute it the best we can.

I do appreciate you discussing this in such an even way given how clearly disappointed you were.

Reply: SeaFall:: Rules:: Re: [SPOILER] Rule 22

Reply: SeaFall:: Reviews:: Re: Review of Seafall, (after 17 games) (no spoilers). We play 2P.

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by manduke

Thanks for this ongoing review of your 2P experience. I have been eying this game to play with my wife, and you have alleviated the concerns I had. Looking forward to this!

Reply: SeaFall:: Variants:: Re: Multiple plays through the prologue?

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by manduke

I know this does not really give the full experience, but if you just do the prologue without writing on anything, using any stickers, or actually even reading from the Booke, so that exploration just gives you a point (and a random resource?) then nothing is spoiled or changed. I know that takes a lot out of the game, but if your players dont like the core gameplay with choosing actions from the 4 guilds and getting advisors, I don't think they would last a whole campaign. So that's my suggestion. Change nothing and spoil nothing, and if they still like it, you found your players.

Reply: SeaFall:: Rules:: Re: [SPOILER] Rule 22

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by razordaze

[o]

ira212 wrote:

Note that conquering an inactive province is allowed, but raiding an inactive province is not.

There's no way to conquer without taking a raid action. No raid, no conquer. Inactive colonies are non-entities.
[/o]

Reply: Indulgence:: General:: Re: Why not just reprint Dragonmaster?

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by Chris Schreiber

I do appreciate you discussing this in such an even way given how clearly disappointed you were.

We're cool. I've done a lot of work on Kickstarter, so I know that leveraging possibilities and engagement in an emotional context can be a real boon --- or a total minefield when you zig and people expected a zag. There's an inevitable emotional release. Hopefully, the fuss people like me made today informs your process going forward. And I have much clearer expectations about what Restoration Games is and isn't.

Indulgence could click with me, the new developments sound interesting. However, the beautiful "homage" to the original game that I'd imagined with a breathtaking modernization and gold foil accents isn't going to happen. My attachment to Pepper's art also has to be understood in the context of its age -- when the art for fantasy-themed games was really pretty bad and often wasn't even in color except for the cover or board. That game didn't look or feel like anything else. This interview with Bob Pepper was helpful for me.

There will be a demand for a new improved version of the gameplay with beautiful art. I saw Chelsea Harper's online portfolio and she is very talented.

Also, a word of caution. When dealing with memory and the past, people remember the way things made them feel more than exact details. Specific sensory details can trigger a wave of feelings ("recognition is stronger than recall"). It's not just the game art of course, the sounds in a game like Dark Tower are essential triggers to the sense memory and perceived value of the experience. When I smell a pack of freshly opened Magic: The Gathering cards I experience temporal anomalies and forget what year it is. I don't think those elements should drive the design process, but they should inform it thoughtfully when mining nostalgic territory (i.e. games that have been out-of-print for more than 10 years).

Let's be honest, any theme in a trick-taking game is a lovely veneer at best.

In general, I agree. But I have found one exception. I'm fond of the thematic integration in the trick-taking game The Bottle Imp. It's between editions now, but an earlier edition even came with the entire short story by Robert Louis Stevenson that inspired the game. People marvel at the thematic integration. Great game, too.

Reply: Indulgence:: General:: Re: Why not just reprint Dragonmaster?

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by DaviddesJ

Chris Schreiber wrote:

Also, a word of caution. When dealing with memory and the past, people remember the way things made them feel more than exact details.


Only a tiny fraction of the buyers of any of these games are going to be those who actually remember the games. At least, if they are to be commercially successful that has to be the case. There just aren't enough nostalgia buyers.

Reply: SeaFall:: Rules:: Re: Smuggler and full holds

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by razordaze

At that point I'd had 4 sail on both ships, with the big one at 4 hold. So a turn one raid was far from viable without a mighty soldier, which no one had.

Reply: SeaFall:: Variants:: Re: Considering a Balancing Variant

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by countertorque

lactamaeon wrote:


[o]Oh wait that already happened in box 1 with the sink a ship milestone.
And looks like we will have that with our Box 2 with the sell goods for 30+gold milestone.
It's too bad the Box 3 milestone didn't work out that way. Oh well.[/o]


Yeah, that's how box 1 and 2 went for us too.

box 3 spoiler
[o]With box 3 opening in the middle of the game, it's not set up to have the same effect.[/o]
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