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Reply: SeaFall:: General:: Re: How mant winters do you get?

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by Becq

abbottj83 wrote:

Out of 8 games + prologue so far we have only had 1 game that reached a second winter (counting the initial winter as Winter 1). Our games average 4-5 turns.

Wow. And I thought our games (7-8 turns, typically) were short!

Reply: SeaFall:: Rules:: Re: Rules questions (from Box 1 or maybe 2)

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by Becq

I agree with J N regarding the actual rule ... but frankly, as long as your group agrees and you're consistent, I suspect that playing it by the house rule you suggest would be fine.

Proposition for revising the BGG Geek Rating system.

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by Thomas Diendorf

Make no mistake, I'm not proposing this simply because Pandemic Legacy is at the #1 spot and I personally think it should be lower than that. That's not the reason. The reason is because I don't believe a game should reach the #1 spot on the same year it has been released. It needs to slowly climb to that spot and earn its way there overtime. It needs to be able to stand the test of time long enough to work it's way there. Because being #1 shouldn't be that easy of a feat.

I'm not sure exactly how BGG initially did it's Geek Rating, what mathematical/statistical formula it has been using up 'till now, but it does seem as if it hasn't taken into account that the number base would grow for board gaming. In other words, it was a formula designed to work with a smaller number, like the numbers the site used to have 1-2 years ago. But the gamer base has grown, and such a formula only taking into account a smaller base doesn't work as well anymore. This is particularly evident given the number of board games released in 2015 and 2016 (as of this posting 15 games from 2015-2016 are in the top 100 according to the BGG Rank system).

The reason why this is bad is because it pushes out too many games that worked their way so high too quickly. It's too fast. Games that are ranked that high shouldn't be moving around so quickly as the result of a new release. It's detrimental to their popularity, especially since the purpose of the BGG Rank is for the purpose of establishing the greatest games of all time. And greatest games of all time that have been around for years shouldn't be dethroned by a new release so fast. A new release may end up being a game that is superior to those already in the top 100, or even the top 500, but that is something that should be made more clear overtime, over the course of a year or two, not over the course of a few months.

Thus a new system should be put in place, something that can adapt to the growing numbers. In addition, since I believe the ranking system should be time based (ie impossible to shoot up to the #1 spot within the first several months of release, minimum; within first year or two of release, maximum).

I'm not exactly a math expert, but I'm going to throw out a suggestion anyway. For Pandemic Legacy (currently at the #1 spot), I've done some excel input to get these average results for the first 6 months of release (April, May, and June 2016):

April average (440 voters): 8.7047727273 (8.7 rounded)
May average (786 voters): 8.6960559796 (8.7 rounded)
June average (660 voters): 8.6218181818 (8.6 rounded)
July average (715 voters): 8.4714685315 (8.5 rounded)
August average (859 voters): 8.5349243306 (8.5 rounded)
September average (827 voters): 8.5804111245 (8.6 rounded)

The first 6 months of a game this popular are important. Initially, I believe BGG was putting in a bunch of "5 rating" dummy votes to offset the starting popularity of a game, the idea being that it would start average, and from there would eventually grow to something great, mediocre, or terrible overtime due to opinions from new/analytical players over the years. So I suggest that, starting from the first 500 votes or the first 2 months, whichever comes first, put in a number of "5 rating" votes dependent on the number of total votes for that first month or 2.

Going by a monthly basis, I suggest the first month get a number of "5 rating" votes that's about 80% of the total votes. In the case of April, which has 440 votes, that's 352 "5 rating dummy votes. For each consecutive month, make it 60% dummy votes, then 40%, then 20%, then finally no dummy votes.

April average (with 352 dummy votes, total of 792 votes): 5.01049511 (5.0 rounded)
May average (with 471 dummy votes, total of 1257 votes): 5.00783063 (5.0 rounded)
June average (with 264 dummy votes, total of 924 votes): 5.01366724 (5.0 rounded)
July average (with 143 dummy votes, total of 858 votes): 5.02410742 (5.0 rounded)
August and September unchanged.

Now take the average of the the above with the dummy votes, plus the results of August and September.
(5.01049511 + 5.00783063 + 5.01366724 + 5.02410742 + 8.5349243306 + 8.5804111245) / 6 =
6.19523931 (6.2 rounded)

Assuming it maintains the current average it holds (8.447), here's what it would be at the end of November 2016 under this system:
(6.19523931 + 8.447 + 8.447) / 3 = 7.6964131 (7.7 rounded)


If one considers this too slow of a growth (which I don't), you could start with 60% dummy votes in April, then 40% in May, 20% in June, and then nothing for the rest; just for comparison, here's the result of what would happen if we did the 60-40-20% instead:

(5.01398027 + 5.02769445 + 5.02723172 + 8.4714685315 + 8.5349243306 + 8.5804111245) / 6 =
6.77595174 (6.8 rounded)

Assuming it maintains the current average it holds (8.447), here's what it would be at the end of November under this system:
(6.77595174 + 8.447 + 8.447) / 3 = 7.88998391 (7.9 rounded)



You could change it up to 10% increments instead, and start at 30, 40, or 50% instead of 80% and go from there, increase or decrease how many months get a certain number of dummy votes, etc, but this is the general idea. In any case, I consider this an improvement, as now the game is following the same growth pattern of all other BGG games in the past with this new formula for the BGG Rank system. An incremental dummy system that takes into account the numbers and the length of time for ranking a game would seem to fit much better than what is currently in place.



What do you think?

Reply: SeaFall:: Strategy:: Re: [Spoiler - Box 3?] Milestone discussion

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by atog

lactamaeon wrote:

Note that this is a box 2 spoiler, not a box 3 spoiler.
[o]
I'm not sure what the best way to get to a colony is offhand, but keep in mind that there's only one copy of the Hale (+1 hold) upgrade (at least as far as I've seen). So you need more gold, but only one upgrade action.

Also note that if someone else is going for a colony, you might be able to snipe some of their goods with a well-timed raid. Obviously this is risky![/o]

I expect that this will do better if supplemented with some combination of explores and raid/tax actions, too, to get some of the goods/money needed without paying (while also collecting glory).
Forgot about. so if i never upgraded my hold the only way is the 2 advisors listed.


so I need to build the [o]guild hall[/o] if he doesn't show up?

I think if i have to invest actions to set up the build i probably won't get there in time, judging by the fact that the game usually end after 2nd winter (turn 7-9).

Reply: SeaFall:: Strategy:: Re: [Spoiler - Box 3?] Milestone discussion

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by lactamaeon

atog wrote:

Forgot about. so if i never upgraded my hold the only way is the 2 advisors listed.


The Stalwart upgrade gives +2 to hold for 18g, so it's not impossible. You just can't get two separate upgrades.

I don't think I would recommend using the Guild Hall to dig for a specific advisor, but I guess it might end up being cheaper than 18, assuming nobody else finds them first?

Thread: SeaFall:: Strategy:: [Spoiler box 2] Is this building worth it?

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by atog

[o]Trading Post[/o]

That is obviously the easiest way to get the [o]sell 30 gold one turn milestone[/o]. Other than that, how does it compare to market?

Since games are generally short, I have a feeling the return and the extra time to build that building is not as good as market, especially when it doesn't worth more glory. What are people's take on that?

Reply: SeaFall:: General:: Re: [Heavy Spoiler - Game 5] [Rant] What the actual Fxxk?

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by Becq

I haven't done much raiding, so take this for what it's worth.

First, there are advantages to specializing and to generalizing. You've been specializing in raid up to now, perhaps it's time to branch out into other specialties? You'll always have a strong advantage in raid even so...

In the meantime, you should probably monopolize on what you're good at. And that is STEALING stuff. Keep an eye out for exploration revealing markets or mines -- don't forget that you can raid a mine to get cold hard cash (sometimes a decent amount), and you can raid a market to gain TWO goods! (Docks are also good, as you've noted.)

When the other players find something nice, be gracious, and thank them when you let them gift it to you. Your job, I think, it to hit the leader and keep him from winning long enough for you to take enough stuff to win yourself.

You have to be strategic about this. You can't raid randomly or continuously; you have to time your raids right. If your opponent gets a pile of gold, grab half of it before he spends it. Or, if you think he might buy a nice treasure, it might be worthwhile to wait -- so that you get the entire treasure, rather than half the gold.

(Box 2)
[o]Are you having trouble buying enough goods to build a colony, while others do so with ease? Let them do the legwork of collecting the goods and financing the colony, then ask them politely for contributions to your effort. Don't forget to thank them afterwards. (If necessary, send the note down to their ship, tied to a rock so it reaches them more quickly.)[/o]

(Box 4)
[o]Or wait until they build a colony for you, then bring your own flag to their grand opening![/o]

In general, the best time to do a high-plunder raid is during the last year of the game, so that they can't shift the tokens to their at war box and attack back during the following year. Note that you can't do this sort of timing for ship raids, since the tokens go directly to the at war box ... but with treasure raids, you can.
(Box 4)
[o]Or conquest raids.[/o]

You might find that you're opponents love the sight of your flag so much that they fly multiple copies of it at their home province. Try to manipulate your opponents into attacking each other ("are you really going to let him keep that nice treasure?!"), too, to free up space in their enmity tracks and reduce your raid difficulty.

Hope something in this is helpful (or at least amusing).

Reply: SeaFall:: Sessions:: Re: Game 4 (Box 2+3 unlocked) [spoilers tagged]

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by TheRealStupid

lactamaeon wrote:

TheRealStupid wrote:

This led to our first “war”.

...

The Prince launched an all-out attack on the Baron’s homeland. The attack was eminently successful, and the Renowned Explorer “Gordon” was captured by the Prince. The Prince used his Advisor to lower the enmity granted, but the damage was still done. The Baron was not going to accomplish the goal this turn.


Was this lowered to zero enmity? If any enmity was placed, it should have been placed on the Council Room.

TheRealStupid wrote:

Mere moments later, having recalculated the odds, the Duke turned an equally malignant eye towards the Baron and kidnapped poor Gordon. (I thought it was pretty much a 50/50 ploy that I would keep him since I had already upgraded by home garrison a bit.) As luck would have it, the ploy was unsuccessful. Once again, the Baron’s warship sailed into a players port and raided the Advisor Room, returning Gordon to his home.


If there was an enmity on the Baron's Council Room, it is not able to be raided again (until Winter, when the tokens move to the At War section). (Though honestly, your way sounds pretty fun :)


In retrospect, that does make sense. After all when a player raids an island site, they place a token there and no one else can raid that same site until the following winter. Seems like would have been a similar situation where the left-over enmity from the Prince would have made the council chamber un-raidable until winter.

Personally, I blame the Baron because he was just putting ALL the raid tokens in his "at war" box immediately. Another argument for better bookkeeping at the table!

Reply: SeaFall:: Strategy:: Re: [Spoiler box 2] Is this building worth it?

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by Becq

It's clearly more expensive (especially sinc you can still only discount the price with one good), but also more effective. But you don't have to think about these things as "OR"s. You can have multiple structures that do similar things, or even multiples of the same structure, and the effects stack. Perhaps start with the less expensive one, then use that to fund the more expensive one. Furthermore, you might find advisors or events (in the starting components, no less!) that stack, too...

Reply: SeaFall:: Strategy:: Re: [Spoiler - Box 3?] Milestone discussion

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by Becq

Why can't you get two upgrades? You can stack upgrades that grant similar bonuses (or even two of the same upgrade, in the situations where multiples exist). Or maybe I misunderstood what you were trying to say...

Reply: SeaFall:: Sessions:: Re: Game 4 (Box 2+3 unlocked) [spoilers tagged]

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by Becq

By the way, when you already have your opponent's tokens in your at war box when you attack them, you might find yourself in a situation where you can "pay for" your raid using only his tokens, since you spend those before spending your own. In that case, it is possible that you place none of your own tokens (possibly in combination with effects that lower enmity cost), which means that the raid site *isn't* locked.

Reply: SeaFall:: General:: Re: Grumpy about my purchase. Worth it with just 2?

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by PootJenkins



I had some of your same concerns going into the prologue with my group of 4; all of which other than me are very casual gamers. I knew we wouldn't have time for the prologue and 1st full game in one session so what I did (after some research and advice on this forum) was lower the glory points required to name an island from 3 to 2. it probably shaved 30-40 minutes off the prologue and kept it from dragging on. We're now 3 games in and loving it. Shortening the prologue hasn't had any adverse effect on our campaign, at least in the short term.


good luck!

Reply: SeaFall:: Strategy:: Re: [Spoiler - Box 3?] Milestone discussion

Reply: SeaFall:: Strategy:: Re: [Spoiler - Box 3?] Milestone discussion

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by Becq

But you could, for example, buy both Hale and Stalwart, and even put them on the same ship for +3 Hold.

Reply: SeaFall:: Strategy:: Re: [Spoiler - Box 3?] Milestone discussion

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by lactamaeon

Sure, if you wanted to make it even slower and more expensive to do the spoiler

Reply: SeaFall:: Strategy:: Re: [Spoiler box 2] Is this building worth it?

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by atog

I get where you are coming from. But for a game that is very "fast paced" and short lived (7-9 turns we are talking), I don't think spending too many turns getting "set up" buildings would lead to happy endings. : )

Reply: SeaFall:: Strategy:: Re: [Spoiler - Box 3?] Milestone discussion

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by atog

lactamaeon wrote:

atog wrote:

Forgot about. so if i never upgraded my hold the only way is the 2 advisors listed.


The Stalwart upgrade gives +2 to hold for 18g, so it's not impossible. You just can't get two separate upgrades.

I don't think I would recommend using the Guild Hall to dig for a specific advisor, but I guess it might end up being cheaper than 18, assuming nobody else finds them first?

Right good point.

But then for the past 3 games, I was trying to rush +2 explore for the skull site and always ended up spending the whole game (before someone reach the next milestone and ending the game) setting up and not being fruitful.

Reply: SeaFall:: Strategy:: Re: [Spoiler - Box 3?] Milestone discussion

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by lactamaeon

Selling in general seems pretty inefficient to me. If you can raid some lower cost goods and tax instead, you may be better off.

Reply: Indulgence:: General:: Re: Why not just reprint Dragonmaster?

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by rdbret

JustinDJacobson wrote:

1) We don't approach every restoration the same way. Each game is unique. Yes, we definitely changed the tone and feel of Dragonmaster. But Indulgence is not all that dark. Let's be honest, any theme in a trick-taking game is a lovely veneer at best. It was with Dragonmaster, and it will be with Indulgence. I disagree about the extent of the restoration. Pepper's art is not a feature because it is by Pepper. It's a feature because it was exciting and different and out there. We're trying to do something similar with Chelsea's art.

2) We knew we were going to disappoint some people no matter what we did. I'm sorry this one doesn't seem like it's going to click with you. "Sorry" in the sense that I'm not happy your disappointed, but not "sorry" in the sense that I take blame for it. That is the nature of art. All we can do is have a strong vision for what we want to do and execute it the best we can.

I do appreciate you discussing this in such an even way given how clearly disappointed you were.


This is a PR masterpiece. And I mean that in a good way...

Reply: SeaFall:: Rules:: Re: Box 5 Searching for help... Spoilers included

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by GregF

heyvince wrote:

Windship2Mars wrote:

[o]I found in another thread that the permanent enmity is only at Tortosa... but still wondering about temples... feels like we missed something[/o]


[o]The only Temple (we are also five boxes in) is at Tortosa. Not sure what gave you the impression there would be more than one. If you mean Tombs and not Temples, than yes there are many tombs. You need to explore unknown sites to find them. [/o]


[o]There are things you might find when you explore called the Temple of _____, but those don't have any relation to the rules regarding the Temple structure at Tortosa.[/o]
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