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Reply: Pandemic Legacy: Season 1:: Rules:: Re: Spoilers from July on

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by dugman

clivej wrote:

dugman wrote:

You can't discard any card you want when you are doing something that requires a discard, it has to be a discard that matches what you are doing.

You say that, but the rules don't say that. Which is the problem.

Well, sometimes they do. Things like "discard the card of the city you're in", for example, gives no leeway to discard something else. But the examples we've been talking about are more ambiguous.


I won't argue about the wording being poor on this point.

Reply: Pandemic Legacy: Season 1:: General:: Re: [SPOILERS] December Objectives Game Design Issue?

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by Drieser

That is not an objective for December, as far as I recall, you destroy all current objectives, and the 2 new ones are "vaccinate every faded city" as you said, and "something" that has to be completed in Atlanta (without further spoiling anything for you).

It seems to me you missed a card somewhere :-)

Reply: Pandemic Legacy: Season 1:: General:: Re: I'm close to buying Pandemic Legacy, I need to know just one spoiler...does this game have (Spoiler)?

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by metaridley18

danzuke wrote:

[o]Man, I realize I'm really in the minority here, but I don't see how the Faded could be any less "Zombie."

They're not zombies.
They don't rise from the dead.
They don't feed on other humans.
They don't convert humans to faded through anything but infection.
No one is biting anyone.

They're sick people one of who's main symptom is pale skin, how is that a zombie? Because they're angry?

I'll grant you the figures are definitely zombie-ish, but nothing in the text makes you think this is a zombie plague.


[/o]


[o]They're zombies in the exact same way that the rage virus from 28 Days Later were zombies (e.g. in every way that matters). Mindless, aggressive, spreading via infection (which CAN come from bites and likely DOES based on the flavor text that I read). You can also kill the Faded with grenades, air strikes, and army personnel. I don't understand how anyone could look at the components, the mechanics, and the flavor text that we're given and NOT immediately think "zombies" [/o]

Reply: Pandemic Legacy: Season 1:: Reviews:: Re: Pandemic Legacy Tear Down (Review - Spoilers through December / End of Game & Risk Legacy)

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by metaridley18

rmsgrey wrote:

metaridley18 wrote:

If something is hard to design, they shouldn't do it rather than design it poorly.


Personally, I'd rather have Pandemic Legacy than have an IOU for a better game maybe someday, possibly, if someone gets the opportunity.

And it's always possible that the success of Season 1 permits the resources to be spent for a significantly improved Season 2, rather than having to get the perfect game first try.

Ultimately, you can always choose to ignore an existing game that you don't like; it's much, much harder for people to play a game that doesn't exist - so it's better to create the game and give people that option.


Sort of. Pandemic Legacy is a hard one because you want to avoid spoilers. It's a game that entices you to learn as little about it before you play so as to preserve the ideal experience, whatever that is. Had I known more about the story and what specific gameplay changes occur from vanilla Pandemic I would have skipped the whole thing--but had I researched the spoilers and been okay with them, it would have ruined the surprise. There's not a good solution except to trust that the designers knew what they were doing and created a good experience, and in this case, for me at least, that trust was ultimately misplaced. I didn't enjoy my experience with the game.

Reply: Pandemic Legacy: Season 1:: General:: Re: [SPOILERS] November Objectives Game Design Issue?

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by gszaszko

Drieser wrote:

That is not an objective for December, as far as I recall, you destroy all current objectives, and the 2 new ones are "vaccinate every faded city" as you said, and "something" that has to be completed in Atlanta (without further spoiling anything for you).

It seems to me you missed a card somewhere :-)


Thanks for the replies! In chatting with the game owner/GM he reminded me that it's the November cycle where we ran into the issue and, yes, in December we're conducting the search and vaccinating as Rafal notes.

So, in short, it sounds like the issue has more to do with November than December in terms of the design issue I raise above.

I've edited the 'reply' thread title and OP accordingly.

Reply: Pandemic Legacy: Season 1:: Rules:: Re: (feb spoilers) co worker with researcher

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by clivej

My examples are, yes.

If anything, C0Da arriving is a bit more mundane. I think as a significant, but not earth-shattering plot point (it used to be spoilered by Z-Man's promotional literature, though I see that's now changed!) it was likely done mid-month to familiarise people with the idea of things changing during a game, before anything more significant happened.

Oh, and they needed a way to choose which disease C0Da was, I guess.

As another consideration, there are only 12 month starts and 12 month ends in the season. If they have more than 25 new things to introduce, either they have some very busy month-starts or month-ends, or some stuff has to happen mid-month.

Reply: Pandemic Legacy: Season 1:: General:: Re: [SPOILERS] November Objectives Game Design Issue?

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by SevenSpirits

Are you forgetting about the rule (introduced with the new "destroy bases" objective) that a military base springs up at the beginning of each game? Also you did get two equipment cards that destroy bases easily, right?

Reply: Pandemic Legacy: Season 1:: General:: Re: [SPOILERS] November Objectives Game Design Issue?

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by gszaszko

SevenSpirits wrote:

Are you forgetting about the rule (introduced with the new "destroy bases" objective) that a military base springs up at the beginning of each game?


There may be a beating of our GM forthcoming as this is not a rule I'm familiar with; will be checking in and thanks for this heads up. It wouldn't be the first time we made the game harder on ourselves.

SevenSpirits wrote:

Also you did get two equipment cards that destroy bases easily, right?


Yes, we have deployed the equipment cards that destroy military bases (and used the Soldier to cycle them) so we're good on that front.

Reply: Pandemic Legacy: Season 1:: General:: Re: Fastest top 20 ever? (EDIT) ...I meant top 1

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by mith

Projection to 8.25: 92 votes
Projection to 8.30: 974 votes

Reply: Pandemic Legacy: Season 1:: Rules:: Re: (feb spoilers) co worker with researcher

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by dugman

clivej wrote:

My examples are, yes.

If anything, C0Da arriving is a bit more mundane. I think as a significant, but not earth-shattering plot point (it used to be spoilered by Z-Man's promotional literature, though I see that's now changed!) it was likely done mid-month to familiarise people with the idea of things changing during a game, before anything more significant happened.

Oh, and they needed a way to choose which disease C0Da was, I guess.

As another consideration, there are only 12 month starts and 12 month ends in the season. If they have more than 25 new things to introduce, either they have some very busy month-starts or month-ends, or some stuff has to happen mid-month.


One further point I neglected to make was that it doesn't make sense to introduce new character upgrades midgame. You would only want to introduce a character upgrade between games or months. It wouldn't make sense to apply relationships to characters in the middle of a game, you would want to do it at the start or end of a game. So having Relationships be in the Legacy deck would again have to be between games, and as I said above I think he wants to in general keep individual games in the same month using the same rules.

Reply: Pandemic Legacy: Season 1:: General:: Re: I'm close to buying Pandemic Legacy, I need to know just one spoiler...does this game have (Spoiler)?

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by clivej

Just a warning to people who haven't played: the spoilers are beginning to get deeper and more detailed, now. It really would be a good idea to think very carefully about whether or not you want to peek.

Reply: Pandemic Legacy: Season 1:: General:: Re: I'm close to buying Pandemic Legacy, I need to know just one spoiler...does this game have (Spoiler)?

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by clydeiii

danzuke wrote:

[o]

metaridley18 wrote:



You can also kill the Faded with grenades, air strikes, and army personnel.


netphantom wrote:


You can also kill humans that way.



The actual card text is very UN-zombie like.

"Victim skin turns translucent, showing the viscera and tissue beneath. Even worse, these Faded often experience periods of great rage, attacking anything within sight. They are agitated and confused during these times, often hallucinating and exhibiting bizarre and abnormal behavior. After these aggressive periods, the Faded are normal in demeanor, although horrible to behold."

Yes, they get angry and attack. But that's where the 28 days later comparison ENDS. See-thru skin, hallucinating, confused, and most importantly RETURNING TO NORMAL AFTER is very much the opposite of what a zombie is, in any way.


[/o]
I dunno man, sounds like a SPOILER to me.

Reply: Heroscape Master Set: Rise of the Valkyrie:: General:: Re: Join "the League of Extraordinary Heroscapers"! A society for venerable elderly ´Scapers

Reply: Pandemic Legacy: Season 1:: Rules:: Re: (feb spoilers) co worker with researcher

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by clivej

Such things could easily make sense, actually.

For example, a legacy card could say: "Turn this over the first time you cure a disease this month." and, when someone does, they get a special upgrade saying they need two cards fewer to cure that disease in future.

Or it could say "Turn over a card from the infection deck and discard it. Place the reminder token on that city. Turn this over the first time a player enters that city." and, when someone enters the city you could find a new character called Succubus, with a "Parent of ____" relationship built in. The player who entered the city then receives a "Child of the Succubus" relationship.

I've deliberately chosen examples that could have all sorts of game-balance and thematic problems. That's not the point. My point is such things are possible within the framework.

Reply: Pandemic Legacy: Season 1:: General:: Re: SPOILERS(March) -- Craziest down to the wire month.

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by spaff_

July Spoiler
[o]We've been playing with 4 players. Up until July we've only lost 1 game (early May, we tried a game without the medic and lost on outbreaks- never again). CoDa: Yellow. Red (unnamed): no positive mutations, Blue(Afluenza- get it?): upgraded to 3, Black (Snake Juice, makes for a good night, but you feel like you died the next day... OK, OK, its not really a disease; whatever): upgraded to 2. No faded cities outside yellow, No collapsing cities, but many 2-3 riots. Military bases in 5 of the 6 regions. Research stations in Atlanta and Delhi. Los Angeles permanently road blocked from spreading into non-faded cities.

Beginning Characters for July: Soldier (Private Ryan), Medic (Thomas, named after our friend in his last year of Residency, upgraded with local connection), Scientist (Yennifer- if you know, you know), and Quarantine Specialist (Rhonda, upgraded with Forecast). There's a family member relationship between Rhonda and Thomas that gave us 2 extra actions throughout the game, the other relationships didn't impact this game.

We decided our #1 priority would be to search for the Virologist, though it is an optional objective- It's got to be important, right? But that meant we were dividing our efforts the entire game which led to our near-defeat.

Our tactic was to keep the soldier in the faded cities and wait for the grenades we had equipped to 2 of the yellow player cards. The theory was if we could get a research station built in yellow, the Soldier could repeatedly discard the yellow card to search, then reequip using his Special. The Quarantine Specialist would quarantine the research station as needed to boost the search, and hopefully the rest of the game would fall into place. Well, we didn't draw the first grenade until over halfway through the game, which the Scientist discarded to build the research station in Kinshasa, which allowed the Soldier to reequip and use as a matching city card for searching! That round we finally finished the search (soldier spending 4 actions to discard, reequip, discard, reequip for use reducing faded threat, then the medic flew from another research station to discard the final yellow card to find the Virologist.)

Then an epidemic caused Snake Juice and CoDa to grow out of control (and up to intensify 3)- we had one chain breakout in Black bumping the outbreak counter to 5, and Coda threatened with 3 connected cities at a level 3 infection in addition to Black containing many level 3 infected cities, plus there was only 1 Snake Juice cube left to place on the board- if we drew the wrong card we would lose on outbreaks OR run out of Snake Juice cubes. We went into survival mode and maximized Rhonda to mitigate the fallout. Of course we were intensifying with three cards at this point but thanks to accurate play we took two more outbreaks (but blocked off any chain reactions, if you saw our board this was an incredible feat) bringing us up to 7, and also nearly depleting Snake Juice again. Also our first non-yellow city became faded. Poor Madrid.

At this point we had cured Snake Juice and Afluenza, built our last Military base for the objective (which, along with the Virologist search completed all our optional objectives needed), and the Scientist had just drawn the last Red player card for the cure, but since we had no positive mutations on Red, we needed to survive TWO player turns before we could discover the cure with NO outbreaks on a map full of level 3 infection cities. And we knew we were up for our last epidemic at any moment (oh yea, we had only 8 cards left in our player deck). At that point the game simply came down to whether or not we drew the last epidemic card before we discovered the cure. Thankfully the game gave us one final kindness at the end of a month of hardship and we survived July (7 wins 1 loss).

This was the first game where rioting cities severely impacted our play (no flights into or out of!) and caused some inefficient and clunky turns. Additionally, though we won, and though we still have no collapsing or fallen cities, a good portion of our map is rioting now, especially Black and Faded cities. And of course our first non-CoDa city became faded. We also realized at the end of the game we forgot to use our win bonus (add three road-blocks) from June which might have saved Madrid, but oh well. It's just as likely we would have chosen to protect America and it wouldn't have mattered.

End game upgrades: we made the research station in Kinshasa permanent, and gave the Soldier the new character upgrade, I forget the name but it allows you to remove 1 faded from any city you leave. Hopefully this will make Private Ryan much more effective dealing with Faded and allow Rhonda to concentrate more on quarantining other threats.
[/o]

Reply: Pandemic Legacy: Season 1:: General:: Re: [SPOILERS] November Objectives Game Design Issue?

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by Antistone

It seems like your objectives might be a little jumbled.

When you opened box #6:
[o]You should have
1. destroyed the "have a military base in every region" objective,
2. gained the "sabotage 2 military bases" objective, and
3. added a new setup rule that causes you add 1 military base and 1 starting military base sticker to the first city that receives cubes/faded and doesn't already have a military-base-related sticker

At this point, your objectives should be:
1. (mandatory) cure the 3 normal diseases
2. quarantine 7 faded cities
3. sabotage 2 military bases
4. any searches you've received but haven't completed
[/o]

When you opened box #7:
[o]You should have
1. destroyed the "quarantine 7 faded cities" objective
2. added a "have 3 vaccine factories on the board" objective
3. added a "vaccinate 6 faded cities" objective

At this point, you'll have 4 objectives (including the mandatory one), so you can complete at least 1 game without sabotaging any military bases at all.

However, the "vaccinate 6 faded cities" objective is destroyed at the end of the first game where you complete it. So if you've already completed that, you end up with a list of objectives that is just:
1. (mandatory) cure the 3 normal diseases
2. sabotage 2 military bases
3. have 3 vaccine factories on the board[/o]

When you get to December:
[o]You destroy all previous objective cards and get new ones, so the one about sabotaging military bases is no longer relevant.[/o]

Now, it is possible to get into a situation where you have to build and destroy the same thing. That could happen if:

[o]If you lose in the first half of September, but not until you've completed all searches and destroyed all military bases, then in the second half you will have exactly 3 objectives, but only 1 new military base placed during setup (technically, you could have 0 new bases if all of the stickers have already been used up because you chose them as upgrades a lot).

Or, after opening box #7, if you complete the one-time objective and still have games left before December, then you'll be down to 3 objectives again, so you have to use the "sabotage 2 military bases" objective.

But it's unlikely you'll complete the one-time objective in the same game you receive it, because it takes a fair amount of work. So this probably only becomes relevant if you complete a lot of objectives while still losing somewhere along the line. But yes, it's possible.[/o]

If you get in this situation, some approaches you could use to deal with it include:
[o]1. Have the Soldier use any card with an equipment sticker to build a military base, then use his ability to pick it up from the discard, so he can use it a second time to destroy that base

2. Have the Operations Expert build a military base without a card, then use the city card for that location to destroy it (you mentioned you lost this character, but included for completeness)

3. Build a military base in the normal way, then destroy it using one of the two C4 equipment stickers

4. Build a military base in the normal way, then use the "Shady Background" character upgrade to let you sabotage with any card of the right color

5. Build a military base in the normal way, then use the "Flexible" character upgrade to take the used card out of the discard (in exchange for another card of the same color) so you can play it again to sabotage.

6. Build a military base in the normal way, use the Rivals relationship to have your Rival pick up the card you used from the discard, then have your Rival sabotage the base with that card

7. Use the funded event card "Remote Outpost" to create a military base, then sabotage it in the normal way (again, if you got into this situation, you probably lost a game, and therefore have some funding)

8. Plan ahead in the previous game, building extra military bases and using game-end upgrades to make them permanent so you'll have something to sabotage in the next game.

9. House-rule the "sabotage 2 military bases" objective to say "sabotage 2 military bases OR have zero military bases left on the board"

I think that objective could have been designed better, but there are a few ways to play around it.[/o]

Reply: Pandemic Legacy: Season 1:: General:: Re: POLL: When did you open box #8? (heavy spoilers through April -- and box #8 -- with light spoilers through July)

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by Granite26

Ah_Pook wrote:

We opened it after beating December, just to see what was in it.

We opened it after winning the first game in November, when it became impossible to open it naturally.

OP:
[o]If you do the math on the cards, you're better off never using them, because they give you extra actions as long as they are in your draw deck.[/o]

Reply: Pandemic Legacy: Season 1:: General:: Re: I'm close to buying Pandemic Legacy, I need to know just one spoiler...does this game have (Spoiler)?

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by clivej

We shouldn't lose track of what OP asked.

bubbybebay wrote:

For some it might not be a deal breaker but Zombies would ruin this game for me. I don't want to know any other potential spoilers. And feel free to hide your answer in a spoilers tag.

I just would like to know, does this game have Zombies? Or require you to kill/fight infected people that are purposefully trying to infect other people (like a zombie would)?

Even the text behind spoiler tags should, by default, be directed towards answering those two questions with as few spoilers as possible.

But now we're straying into quoting exact text from important moments in the game, and discussing exactly what the game lets you do about one of the threats. I think those things deserve a more specific warning outside the spoiler tags.

Reply: Pandemic Legacy: Season 1:: General:: Re: I'm close to buying Pandemic Legacy, I need to know just one spoiler...does this game have (Spoiler)?

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by danzuke

clivej wrote:

We shouldn't lose track of what OP asked.

bubbybebay wrote:

For some it might not be a deal breaker but Zombies would ruin this game for me. I don't want to know any other potential spoilers. And feel free to hide your answer in a spoilers tag.

I just would like to know, does this game have Zombies? Or require you to kill/fight infected people that are purposefully trying to infect other people (like a zombie would)?

Even the text behind spoiler tags should, by default, be directed towards answering those two questions with as few spoilers as possible.

But now we're straying into quoting exact text from important moments in the game, and discussing exactly what the game lets you do about one of the threats. I think those things deserve a more specific warning outside the spoiler tags.


Yea, alright. I do get that. I'll just kill my post. It's just an argument that won't come to a resolution anyways.

Reply: Pandemic Legacy: Season 1:: Rules:: Re: DEUTSCH / German: Zentraler Thread Deutsche Errata (Spoilerfrei!)

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